Monday, May 14, 2007

The lone ramblings of a JRuby developer in denial

Jeremy Rayner has a nice summary of all the positive and negative feedback dished out to Groovy at JavaOne the overwhelming majority of which is positive. It is entertaining to see that the most vocal and negative comments come from none other than a JRuby committer Ola Bini.

I can imagine the picture now of Ola sitting in a Groovy session with his fingers in his ears and eyes shut going "nah nah nah I'm not listening!!". Unfortunately Ola, as demonstrated by the vast array of positive feedback and the book sales, really there is only one winner this year: Groovy

Nevermind, there is always next year ;-)


Ola Bini said...

Graeme: I realize that part of my postings could be viewed as negative feedback towards Groovy, but I also made it very clear that my feelings about Groovy are very subjective. And I would really love to be able to like Groovy. But at the end of the day, I can't, and I wanted to make that clear to my readers, and also try to describe the reasons for my dislike.

I'm very happy about Groovy getting good press and feedback; it was very nice to see the huge amount of people wanting to see the Groovy-presentations. The whole ecosystem of dynamic languages on the JVM will continue (and SHOULD continue) to coexist. This isn't an evolutionary battle for survival, after all. Different languages suit different persons.

Anonymous said...

I love both and I use both.
both JRuby and Groovy now have a small market share. you should not fight each other or write such blog entries as Graeme did.

if you really want an Enemy use VB :-)
both JRuby and Groovy together with Swing could be a real killer for GUI stuff (when Netbeans's Matisse will be able to produce Groovy/Jruy code).

why not stop this and work together where possible.

Graeme Rocher said...

Anonymous - Yes I prefer not to turn this into an argument either.

Ola - I would respect your views if your blog post was not an emotion fueled rant against Groovy.

You claim the language is inconsistent without seeing the inconsistencies in Ruby (camel case for class names and lowercase+underscore for method names!?!?).

You claim its like the new Perl when in fact Ruby is far more Perlesque with its Perl heritage. And the fact that the negativity towards Groovy comes from a JRuby developer kind of says it all.

If you don't want a fire then don't stoke the flames.

Anonymous said...

Previous anonymous said: "when Netbeans's Matisse will be able to produce Groovy/Jruby code"

That's the beauty of the Groovy - it can happily use java, so you can transparently use Matisse-generated code. (closures instead of anon inner classes for event handles would be great though)

Anonymous said...

"camel case for class names and lowercase+underscore for method names!?!?"
Actually I find this convention very attracting.

Graeme Rocher said...

Anonymous - One man's meat is another man's poison

Ola Bini said...

Graeme: I'm going to let this lie now. There is no reason to argue you like you do, and as I've repeatedly said: I'm not interested in Groovy "losing" and JRuby "winning". I didn't say "Groovy is bad", I said "I don't like Groovy". That's my personal preference and you will just have to deal with me feeling that way. And notice that I did not back that feeling up with any technological points, just general emotional ones for the exact reason that I do NOT want to get into a language war about this.

It's you who are doing the pushing right now, and it reflects badly on you.

Graeme Rocher said...

For sure, which is exactly why you don't see me commenting on all the things I don't like about Ruby in my blog, because it would make no sense coming from me as I too have made my choice.

My point was not to start a language war, my point was that you as a JRuby developer, should not be commenting on Groovy as it only reflects badly on you.

Anonymous said...


Actually, when I initially read your comment, and since I don't have much (any) knowledge of JRuby, I was actually interested to read what your thoughts were on Groovy and was kinda disappointed when you didn't provide any actual examples of what you find dislikable.

I think any criticism of anything should be backed up with some tangible, and valid examples. It says that you've given pause for thought on the matter. Not doing so makes it seem more emotional and irrelevant.

IMHO. :)

Anonymous said...

graeme should just stop. is he even reading what ola is saying?

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